Mindhive: I'm so conflicted

December 30, 2003

I'm so conflicted

So, I was looking for an upgrade to my trusty Sony DSC F717 camera. My reasons for the upgrade are varied. For example, I really need to have a saturation control; I'd also like a better UI/button combination; and I got sand into my 717's manual focus ring, which makes hideous grinding noises now. Until recently, I was looking at Sony's F828 as the logical replacement; however, as of now it seems that Sony's new camera is not the wonder-toy of pixel-pushing power that Sony's marketers claim it is.

I was looking at the F828 primarily because it fixed all the problems I had with the F717, while retaining the excellent form factor and lens system. In addition, the new camera has an RGBY sensor, which promises better color reproduction and more correct auto-white-balance -- a feature which, if true, would fullfill my dreams of never having to look at hideous yellow shots ever again. However, according to the reviews, F828 has two major problems: chromatic aberration (a.k.a. purple fringing) and noise. The chromatic aberration in particular seems to be unacceptable to most people, and the hideous noise at ISO above 100 is the logical effect of Sony's marketing-driven desire to cram 8 Megapixels into a tiny sensor.

However, Sony's camera still contains an insane number of features (the uber-fast Zeiss lens being just one of them). The only camera that seems to meet (or even exceed) these features, for a comparable price, is the Minolta DiMage A1. Unfortunately, after looking at the reviews, I feel like the proverbial donkey that dies of starvation because it's stuck between two equally desirable piles of hay.

In other words, both cameras have their pros and cons, and their weighted average sums up to zero in my mind. This is what matters to me about the Sony camera:

+ Excellent build quality. The camera feels nice and solid, the lens is balanced directly under my left hand, and the camera body swivels so that I can shoot at waist level (or, in fact, any level). I have used this feature on many occasions, it really is a big plus.
+ Nice huge lens, which does not extend when zooming (unlike all the other lenses). This makes it faster (in all senses of the word) and easier to handle.
+ RGBY sensor. Better color reproduction and white balance... Assuming it works.
+ Movie mode. 640x480x30fps. Insane.
+ Sensible UI: hold button, turn mode dial, the camera echoes your choices in real time.
+ Macro focus of 2cm. That's right, you heard me: TWO CENTIMETERS. That's just Power Overwhelming.
+ Railgun-mounted flash and military-grade hologram-assist laser. It's more than a camera; it's a small aresnal. The low-light focus is also very good.
+ I already have all these batteries, memory sticks, and filters for it.
- Encrypted RAW files. What the hell ? Is Sony deliberately trying to piss people off ? I don't take this crap from the RIAA, and I'm not going to take it from Sony either.
- The CompactFlash is not fully compatible with Sony's camera. See above.
- Unacceptable CA and noise. NeatImage can only do so much. Inicidentally, the people on DPReview's forums * were very helpful in my research. They kept saying things like, "you can't see the noise on 4x6 prints", or "CA is not a big deal if you look at this photo from 10m away". Yeah, right, and I bet it looks even better if you reduce it to the size of a postage stamp. Guess what ? I deal with digital photos exclusively, I don't care how small your paper prints are.

And here are my thoughts about the A1:

+ More manual controls than even F828. Saturation bracketing, baby ! Not to mention tunable WB, tone, etc. etc.
+ Way, way less noise even at ISO 400
+ A bit less CA as well
+ Selectable manual focus preview: you can magnify any area of the image to check the focus.
+ Anti-shake ! This camera actually moves the CCD to compensate for your hands shaking. And by now, I've lost so many great shots due to shaky hands that I've lost count.
+ Continuous focus: makes the AF faster when shooting things that move.
- DPReview says that the camera produces some weird Bayer artifacts, which greatly reduce its effective resolution.
- Crappy macro performance, especially as compared to 717/828. The macro focus distance is 30cm (as opposed to 2cm), and Minolta apparently limits you to some sort of a weird macro preset -- basically, you can't zoom in macro mode. Bah.
- I've never used this camera, so I'm not sure how it would feel in my hand.
- Slower shooting times.
- Less accurate low-light focus.
- Lower build quality, worse form factor (no more body tilting...)

Most of the other features of the two cameras -- resolution, battery life, hotshoe, etc. -- are either unimportant to me, or are nearly identical.

I have also considered some DSLRs, such as the EOS Rebel that Roger has, but I have decided that DSLRs are really not for me. The only advantage of the viewfinder that I can think of would be the manual focus. In all other ways, the LCD/EVF is superior: it shows me exactly what my photo would look like -- white balance, exposure, noise, etc. -- not just what the lens sees. And besides, it's physically impossible to use the viewfinder with glasses (the lenses get in the way). Bah. The other good feature of DSLRs -- replaceable lenses -- is simply too expensive for me to afford.

So... finally... I once again come to you, my loyal blog readers (yes, both of you). What should I do ? Specifically, does anyone here have any experience with Minolta's cameras ? If you were going to spend ~$1k on a digital camera, which one would you get ?

_{* Inicidentally, I tried posting this exact comment on DPReview's forums. They asked for my email address for purposes of registration, and then never emailed me my password. What's the deal ? Am I not 1337 enough to post on public forums anymore ?}

Posted by metabug at 2003/12/30 23:14 | TrackBack (958) | Categories: Photos

Comments

Hey... wait a minute... This post says that the F828 has the regular extending lens, not a fully enclosed one like the F717. Is that true ? The balance of my sanity is tipping...

Posted by: Bugmaster at 2003/12/30 23:30

Before I had finished the first paragraph I already knew what to say... get a canon digital SLR... Then at least you have some good lenses. But sounds like you don't want that.

I guess my second fallback Fundamental Truth is, "avoid Sony because they're always overpriced and have expensive peripherals."

I guess my processed opinioin would be that it occurs to me that 99% of your published 'work' is macro-photography. Since you don't care to invest in a huge SLR rig, you should get whichever of these cameras is most ideally suited to macro photography as you do it.

By-the-way....there can be a certain, pleasing aesthetic to a photograph in low, indoor, incandescent light that has a yellow cast. Even National Geographic does that from time to time.

Posted by: Michael Slater at 2003/12/30 23:46

Um. If you have read my entire post, you might have stumbled on this paragraph: I have also considered some DSLRs, such as the EOS Rebel that Roger has, but I have decided that DSLRs are really not for me. The only advantage of the viewfinder that I can think of would be the manual focus. In all other ways, the LCD/EVF is superior: it shows me exactly what my photo would look like -- white balance, exposure, noise, etc. -- not just what the lens sees. And besides, it's physically impossible to use the viewfinder with glasses (the lenses get in the way). Bah. The other good feature of DSLRs -- replaceable lenses -- is simply too expensive for me to afford.

If you want to make a case for DSLR, please do (a professional's opinion is always a plus), but "buy DSLR just because I say they're better" doesn't do it for me.

Regarding the yellow colors: yeah, I know what you mean, but with 717 this problem is orders of magnitude worse. Even the crappy Kodak DC4800Z camera didn't have as many problems -- or, rather, it did, but its red tint is preferable to the yellow.

Anyway, I see what you mean about macro work... But I'm actually not sure which camera is better. I could sort of compensate for A1's lousy macro focus by buying bigger lenses, and I could sort of compensate for Sony's large (and, therefore, shaky) exposures by using higher ISO and massive amounts of post-processing. Either option is kind of unattractive...

Posted by: Bugmaster at 2003/12/31 00:01

I say get a DSLR so that you can choose the appropriate lens for the job, rather than have to find some jack-of-all-trades lens.

Especially in your case, because as a mostly-macro photographer, your lens needs are fairly different than the median. Don't make so many tradeoffs.

As for the viewfinder v. ccd display, I actually, in my limited experience w/ digital cameras, found I hated the ccd display -- always washed out by the sun. And plus, by your own admittance above, looking at an image the size of postage stamp is not reprentative of what it looks like on a 21" monitor.

Secondly, I think that most DSLRs also have a ccd display if that's what you want.

If you're looking for good value, but high quality, you might think about getting a 35mm film camera. For 1500$ you can buy the best SLRs Canon manufactures. But I admit it is a more tedious production cycle, with the film, and the scanning, and so on.

Posted by: Michael Slater at 2003/12/31 00:35

Yeah, you might be right about the DSLR and macro. However, I also take some portrait and sky shots, so I definitely will need a non-macro lens (but probably a cheap one). Do you think that the purchase of two lenses still justifies the DSLR choice ?

Also, in your opinion, do DSLRs have other advantages besides the viewfinder (which I probably won't use that much) and the changeable lenses (which, I admit, is a very large plus) ? I understand that film SLRs have even more advantages, but I could never go back to the analog workflow, so sadly they're not for me.

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Posted by: Roger Hsueh at 2003/12/31 09:00

Your main objection to interchangeable lens system is the cost, so let's look at your needs and figure out how much really that would cost...

Say you get 300D body only: $830
a Canon EF 50mm macro: $229
Comes out not far from your $1k goal.

What would this enable you to do?
* Macro work with real macro lens, not diopter filters or extension tube or whatever... Canon EF 50mm Macro is known to be very sharp and distortion free.
* Portrait work with control over DOF
* Whatever else you can take with 80mm equivalent focal distance (300D has 1.6x cropping factor)

Anyway, don't worry too much about the lens cost. Canon lenses have very high resale value.
You can't say the same for non-SLR cameras. Prosumer P&S cameras will lose value very very quickly. Even if the lens is good you can't take it out and use it elsewhere.

Posted by: Roger Hsueh at 2003/12/31 12:35

Wait, I'm confused... I thought the focal length of the macro lens made it impractical for anything but, well, macro shots ? You're right about the resale value, though. However, it also seems that Minolta A1 has even 300D beat in terms of features, so that's yet another factor for me to think about. Also... what is that ExpoDisk thingy ? Their site looks like an ad for one of those magnetic immortality rings.

Posted by: Bugmaster at 2003/12/31 12:51

I also want to address some issues you raised about the two cameras you mentioned.

RE: SONY 828
* 828's movie mode is useless because it can't use CompactFlash at high rez. I was really disappointed by this.
* When using macro mode, can SONY focus close enough to produce 1:1 or 1:2 of life size image? What's the working distance like? If you are forced to be right up the subject, it's going to be pretty cumbersome and if you are shooting bugs, they'll just get scared away.
* SONY basically doesn't have usable RAW. This is a huge disappointment.
* Live histogram is very useful. They should change the camera's UI totally to reflect this. Here's your input histogram (the scene in front of the lens) and here's your possible output histogram (recordable on CCD). Now you slide levels and curves around instead of adjusting aperture and shutter. :-)
* My hunch is that even if you only view photos on a computer screen, the noise won't be that big an issue. Do you have a 3264 x 2448 monitor? or do you regularly crop out huge sections of a photo and only look at a small section?

RE: Minolta A1
* Canon also has "anti-shake" in the form of IS (Image Stabalization) lenses.
* 300D has subject tracking AI focus as well.

I think, you can already filter out A1 from your selection already since it seems to have only added macro setting as an afterthought.

Posted by: Roger Hsueh at 2003/12/31 13:42

RE: "80mm equivalent focal distance"
oops, i meant focal length.

Posted by: Roger Hsueh at 2003/12/31 13:44

no no... a macro lens (one that can focus close enough to produce image that's 1:1 or 1:2 of live image) is perfectly suitable for other things.

It'll perform similarly to other equivalent focal length lens with equivalent aperture.

Check out some reviews... People do use Canon 50mm Macro for portraits...etc

The only difference is that 50mm is only f/2.5.
For the about same price but without macro capability, you can get Canon EF 50mm f/1.4.

Also all else being equal, AF is a little bit slower on the maco lens. (Macro photographers don't use AF anyway.)

Posted by: Roger Hsueh at 2003/12/31 13:50

Sony encrypts their RAW data?

Does Sony even offer the slightest compelling reason why they would do this to your benefit?

Posted by: Michael Slater at 2004/01/01 07:16

Roger, thanks for the infor about the macro lens, I'll check it out. I might get a DSLR after all, just not 300D... I handled the camera that you had, and I didn't really like it. Actually, one particular thing I didn't like is how you can't move the AF targeting reticule around, and especially how you can't move it into a corner -- unless you can ? Anyway, this is also a feature I use a lot.

Posted by: Bugmaster at 2004/01/01 13:27

Slater: Yes, Sony probably does offer a reason for encrypting their RAW files. They just offer a different reason to consumers, as opposed to shareholders. Bah.

Posted by: Bugmaster at 2004/01/01 13:28

Hi.

A few comments.
I have owned (amongst other digital cameras) a Sony 707 and a Minolta Dimage 7 (their older 5MP, which I since sold). I can say unequivocally that I preferred the Sony in almost every respect.

The Minolta had a very poor build quality, hard to use UI, and terrible battery life, etc. etc. but did take very good pictures. The Sony 707 I am very happy with (especially the laser/hologram AF/night vision). The only problem really is the the color tint you guys have mentioned. Needless to say, my mind is a bit poisoned against Minolta at the moment, and pro-Sony. Perhaps the Minolta A1 has addressed some of the previous shortcomings, but overall, once you get past Sony's idiotic "proprietary" formats and elevated prices, their tech and ergonomics are pretty good.

---

With respect to the Sony RAW format. Is it actually an "encrypted" RAW? Or just a proprietary RAW-like format? What I've read is that its RAW format gives you a bit more control over image parameters (white balance, color depth, etc.) and may also be different because the 828 uses a RGBE (E=emerald) scheme rather than RGB. I believe their RAW converter program saves in 8 bit as well, and is reputed to be quite slow. :-(

---
On CA: There seem to be a number of threads on DPR and other sites
---
On movies: I also have a Sony T1 (their super small 5MP camera), which supports the 640x480x30 fps movie mode (if you use Sony's DUO PRO MS). I can confirm the movies look very good. Non-pro MS cannot write fast enough to support this mode.

---

Ultimately... it seems your main concerns are really the Bayer-noise reducing effective resolution and macro capabilities.

My conclusion would be: WAIT.

Don't buy the 828 unless some proper solutions come out about its noise, and don't buy the Canon 10D/300D if you don't like the camera build/want to buy other lenses. I'm sure that Canon/Fuji/Nikon will have more dSLR like high MP count cameras out soon.

---

If anyone has questions on the Sony T1, am happy to answer. Approx size is the same as a pack of playing cards, and it comes with a blinding AF assist lamp and flash... awesome.

A nice review of the Sony 828 vs Canon 10D from Michael Reichmann:

Another 828 vs 717 thread:

Posted by: Raj Sethi at 2004/01/01 20:05

Yeah, DPR mentioned that basically the old Minolta really suxx0red. However, they also kept saying "kudos Minolta for fixing this and that" all throughout their A1 review, so your mind-poison may be out of date.

I understand about RGBE vs encryption; however, every review and forum thread I've read indicates that the files are actually encrypted, on top of being RGBE. Bastards.

Anyway, yeah, 828 simply doesn't seem like a viable option anymore, due to the bad image quality and the downright insulting behavior of Sony. The problem is... I really can't wait. I have no idea when the sand in my manual focus ring eats its way through into the lens system, like a wave of all-consuming cancer. Fixing the camera would be a good option, of course -- except it will cost $300 (non-Sony solution) or 6 months (Sony solution), and I'm not willing to part with either.

Posted by: Bugmaster at 2004/01/01 21:52

Yeah. i don't really understand how and why you would encrypt RAW output from the camera either. Did they mention what kind of encryption scheme it used?

btw, 300D has 7 user selectable focus points. I usually leave it in the middle.

Can you get sand out the camera same way it came in?

Posted by: Roger Hsueh at 2004/01/02 13:17

Another thing to consider...

If you keep improving your Macro stuff, presumably at some point you're going to have to face the reality that you need a high quality lighting/flash system.

I'm not sure what these proSumer sony-sort of cameras offer, but at least with a Canon or Nikon DSLR you'd have the potential for very controlled lighting exposure far beyond the typical fill-flash....

Posted by: Michael Slater at 2004/01/05 22:02

Is there a version of these things that works outside of a studio setting ? I don't have a studio, and I'm having a difficulty fitting my lens around leaves and twigs as it is...

Posted by: Bugmaster at 2004/01/06 00:01

DPReview finally posted a full review for the DSC F828, including a comparison against EOS 300D. No big surprises there; EOS 300D has lower resolution but far superior image quality (sans some blooming).

Posted by: Bugmaster at 2004/01/10 22:11

More 8MP competition on the way for Sony?

http://www.imaging-resource.com/NEWS/1073674311.html

Posted by: Raj Sethi at 2004/01/14 09:54

I actually don't care about megapixels. The guy is right: And just how much better are 8 megapixel files than 5 or 6 megapixel ones? For my part, I'd much rather see a 5 megapixel camera with *really clean* shots at ISO 800 or 1600, than an 8 megapixel one that struggles at ISO 200.

Posted by: Bugmaster at 2004/01/14 10:09

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